God So Loved
Some of the World:
Calvinism’s Heresy
of Limited Atonement
Copyright © 2006
By Steven Melvin McCalip
Website: www.kingjamesman.com
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The Calvinist would have no problem with this translation of the famous passage in John 3:16, for this is exactly what they teach it should say: “God so loved SOME of the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that only the elect that believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”
Some of the Strongest Verses
Against Limited Atonement
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9)
Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish. (Matthew 18:14)
“And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.” (1 John 2:2)
“For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. (1 Timothy 4:10)
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. (John 1:29).
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. (Hebrews 2:9).
For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. (2 Cor. 5:14-15).
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; (1 Tim. 2:4-5)
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. (1 John 5:1)
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. (Romans 5:18)
In the famous passage of John chapter 3, Jesus quoted Numbers 21:8-9 from the Old Testament to prove that whosoever believed in him would not perish JUST AS whosoever looked upon the brass serpent on the pole would live.
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:14-16).
And the Lord said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live. And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived. (Numbers 21:8-9).
Notice above that scripture said that “every man” shall live if he looked on the brass serpent. In addition, it said if the serpent had bitten “any man” and if that man looked on the serpent of brass, that man lived. “Every” and “any” man could live if he did what Moses instructed. Does that sound like only some could live, or that that group of men was limited in any way to a select few? Since Jesus referred to this very passage in John 3:16 to say who was saved, then consider this absurdity that has to believed by Calvinists: They would have to teach that the serpent back in Moses’ day bit only the elect men, and on top of that, it bit only the elect men who looked on the brass pole, for those, if you remember, are the only ones who lived. Are you seriously going to entertain the notion that, of all the men that were bitten by the serpent, that only the elect would look upon the pole so they could live? Jesus himself compared this situation to John 3:16 and who could live if they looked on him. I don’t remember Moses saying anything about only the “elect” being able to look upon the pole. Jesus sure picked the wrong Old Testament story to show election. He must have been confused.
John 3:16’s use of the word “world” is defined in John 3:19; it does not mean “the elect” because it says this world, or men, loved darkness:
“And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.” (John 3:19)
The point above is that when John 3:16 says, “God so loved the world,” the Calvinists say this term “world” was the world of the elect, preselected individuals for salvation. Just three verses later, this same author uses the word “world” to mean the entire population of mankind who love darkness. This is certainly not “the elect” only. This means everyone. The proof? All men love darkness before they are saved, not just the “elect.” Further proof is these men are condemned, it says, to hell for loving darkness rather than light. As I pointed out in a previous article, how could elect people who have been chosen to go to heaven ever be condemned? They can’t. They are guaranteed to go to heaven. To say that the elect are condemned is a joke. It is not true according to Calvinists. If that were true, then the Calvinist would have to admit that there was a chance that the elect could go to hell. Calvinists will never admit that. That being the case, there is no condemnation to a Calvinist elect, yet Romans 8:1 teaches that AFTER we are saved, “there is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus.” Condemnation exists for those who are not in Christ Jesus yet, and that included the elect, who are not in Christ Jesus until they believe. Again, the point is that there is no condemnation for someone guaranteed salvation because they’re elect. They are never really condemned to hell because they’ve been promised eternal life before EVER believing.
John 3:16 uses word “perish” just as Apostle Peter does in 2 Peter 3:9:
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9)
Jesus was talking about the world not “perishing” in John 3:16. I proved already that this word “world” didn’t mean the “elect.” Since it didn’t mean “elect,” we now see this word “perish” used again with Peter saying the Lord is “not willing that any should perish…” By comparing this to John 3:16, we see that those people talked about in Peter can’t just mean the elect also. It didn’t mean the elect in John 3:16 where the same language is used, and it doesn’t mean just “elect” here. The Lord is not willing that ANY SHOULD PERISH. Why would this mean just the elect if they can’t perish anyway? There is no need for Peter to say to the elect that God is not willing that they should perish. They have no chance of perishing according to Calvinists. The Calvinist makes this say the opposite of what it says: that God IS WILLING that many perish. If that is the meaning, why isn’t that in the verse? The very opposite is in the verse: that he is NOT WILLING that any should perish. Believing a lie is an awful thing. It will get you to bypass the brain God gave you.
Jesus used word “perish” again in reference to little children and said it is not the will of God that any children should perish or go to hell:
Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish. (Matthew 18:14)
We now have the word of God two different times saying God is NOT WILLING that any should perish (2 Peter 3:9 and Matt. 18:14), yet in the face of these two clear and obvious times, the Calvinist will say God IS WILLING that most should perish. What complete and utter foolishness and deception! The Calvinists should compete in gymnastics because they are very good at figuring out ways to stretch and get around these verses. “All” doesn’t mean “all,” “whoever” doesn’t mean “whoever,” “not willing” means “he is willing,” and the list goes on. Black means white, and good is evil. How great is that darkness!
Was Jesus saying that all the little children in front of him at that time were elect only? Of course not. Does the Calvinist really believe that only elect children were standing in front of Jesus? Jesus had a crowd of people around him. Since some were obviously not elect, Jesus STILL said that it wasn’t the will of his Father that any of those children should perish. Do you get the point here? Jesus taught it wasn’t the will of God for non-elect children to perish and go to hell. The Calvinist is in quite a pickle here, for his only out is to say all the children were elect, and that is far fetched and not realistic. On top of that, there is no proof for that lame assertion.
This next verse below is an example of how the word “world” is shown to mean the opposite of “us” or “our” sins. This verse singlehandedly destroys Calvinism, for it contrasts “us” (the supposed elect) with the rest of the “world,” and then gives the deathblow; Jesus is the propitiation for BOTH. What could be clearer or more obvious? Any attempt by a Calvinist to explain this away only adds to their ignorance, and I say that having myself formerly been deceived by this nonsense for a short while.
“And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.” (1 John 2:2)
John wrote to all believers, not just Jews in case you believe that “our” sins meant Jewish believers as opposed to Gentile believers. Nowhere in John or 1 John does he address only Jewish believers.
“These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.” (1 John 5:13)
In the verse below, the word “specially” proves that not only is Jesus the Saviour of others, but he is specially the Saviour of those who believe. This verse is just like the one previously used and is just as powerful because it too contrasts two different peoples, those who believe (the supposed elect) and all those who don’t believe. The nail in the coffin of Calvinism is that Jesus is the Saviour of BOTH. Like the previous verse above, this verse is so patently obvious to include the whole world that any attempt at showing otherwise makes you look rather foolish. Jesus Christ is the Saviour of ALL MEN, specially those who believe (as opposed to those who don’t). Kiss limited atonement goodbye and give it its proper burial.
“For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. (1 Timothy 4:10)
Now here is the proof and the matching verse that demonstrates the point that two different groups were both provided salvation by the Saviour. This verse is very similar to the above verse, and it shows unmistakeably that the phrase “all men” applies to not just the elect, but the whole world, thereby destroying the damnable doctrine that Christ died just for some pre-selected individuals:
As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith. Gal. 6:10
Paul said for us to do good to “all men,” especially unto them that are of the faith. That is a clear distinction between saved men and lost men, using the same language that the other verse above used between the supposed elect and the lost. The point here is that this verse proves with the same wording that two different groups are in mind. With that being the case, Jesus is the Saviour of every man that has ever lived and he died for all those men. Please compare these two verses again and again. The Calvinist will have to admit that the same wording is used in both, and that the second verse clearly shows two different groups being discussed. Why then aren’t they two different groups in the first verse in Timothy? To deny that is to deny irrefutable truth.
Here is “world” used again in connection with the Saviour saving them.
And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. (1 John 4:14).
To show that the word “world” doesn’t ever mean elect, look at these:
I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. (John 17:9)
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. (John 6:51)
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. (John 1:29).
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. (2 Cor. 5:19)
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. (Hebrews 2:9).
Compare the three “alls” used in the next verses below. “All” were dead, and that has to mean everyone because we know all sinners died through Adam, so the next “all” has to mean everyone also. The verse is set up to show that if one died for all, (then) that is why all had to be dead. The reverse is true also. If all were dead, then that is why he died for all. It would make no sense to substitute “all the elect” in two of these and leave it out where it says the rest.
For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. (2 Cor. 5:14-15).
It is stated here that it is God’s will or desire that men be saved, not that all will be saved:
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; (1 Tim. 2:4-5)
Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. (1 Tim. 2:6)
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, (Titus 2:11)
Do all men go astray or only the elect?
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. (Isaiah 53:6)
The following verse is another nail in the coffin of this man-made, false theology. The scriptures emphatically and unequivocally state that Jesus died for FALSE PROPHETS. What’s more, these false prophets are said to bring to themselves “swift destruction” and “damnable heresies.” “Damnable heresy” means you’re “damned” and going to hell if you don’t repent. Some of these false prophets, whom the Lord “bought” with his blood, end up going to hell. If that is not a complete and utter repudiation of this fable called “Calvinism,” nothing is.
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. (2 Peter 2:1)
Here you have elect that were sanctified with the blood of Jesus counting it an unholy thing and will suffer eternal punishment. Did you catch that?
Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? (Hebrews 10:29).
Don’t miss that point above. These people, who have trodden underfoot the blood of Jesus, were NEVERTHELESS SANCTIFIED BY JESUS’ BLOOD. Is the Calvinist going to say these people who trampled on the blood of Jesus were elect also? Do you see to what extent these Calvinists will go to hang on to their TULIPS? Dear Calvinist, let it go and just believe in the word of God instead of your traditions.
One of the Calvinist’s points is that the word “many” shows that Christ died for not all, but some. They must have ignored or missed these verses then. The word “many” can mean “all”:
For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. (Romans 5:19)
Is the Calvinist going to seriously try to say that only some (”many”) were made sinners? Isn’t it obvious that “many” means “all” here because we know that “all” are sinners, not just some.
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. (John 12:32)
Any Man Can Come to Jesus
Should this verse say “if the elect hear my voice, …I will come in to him”?
Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. (Revelation 3:20)
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. (2 Cor. 5:17)
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. (Luke 14:26)
Should we substitute “any of the elect” for “any man”?
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. (John 6:51)
In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. (John 7:37)
I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. (John 10:9)
If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour. (John 12:26)
If any man have ears to hear, let him hear. (Mark 7:16)
Romans 5
For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. (Romans 5:6)
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (Romans 5:12)
Adam is the figure of Christ
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. (Romans 5:14)
But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. (Romans 5:15)
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. (Romans 5:18)
Romans 5:18 simply can’t be refuted as to applying to all men without exception. We know that judgment came upon every man that has ever lived and condemned all of them. Even the Calvinist will admit this. That being the case, why do they suddenly in midstream and in mid-sentence change the next “all” to mean only “some” men? It is completely wrong and obvious error to those who can read and are not blinded by this fairy tale.
“Whosoever means anyone”
To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. (Acts 10:43)
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. (Revelation 22:17)
But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; (John 4:14)
Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. (1 John 4:15)
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. (1 John 5:1)
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? (John 11:26)
I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. (John 12:46)
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. (Acts 2:21)
Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent. (Acts 13:26)
For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. (Romans 10:11)
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. (Romans 10:13)
***If whosoever means elect in the following passage, then you have the elect losing his life in one part and saving his life in another.
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel’s, the same shall save it. (Mark 8:35)
For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother. (matthew 12:50)
And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. (Matthew 21:44)
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call. (Joel 2:32)
Mr. McCalip, I would like to comment on your gross misunderstanding of the first verse (2 Peter 3:9) you use in your arsenal to “debunk” the doctrine of Limited Atonement.
I would ask you to consider the phrase “not willing that any should perish” as you have highlighted. Have you ever asked yourself, “To whom is Peter writing?” Or even, “To whom does ‘US’ refer in the verse?”
I read in the section ‘ABOUT STEVE’ that you are apparently an educated man. If the understood personal pronoun is “US,” then good grammar would dictate that Peter is saying that God is “not willing that any of US (believers) should perish.”
To: Santana
(1 Corr 15:22 For as in Adam all die so in Christ shall all be made alive. 32 But every man in his own order.)
(Romans 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in disbelief, that he might have mercy on all.)
Am I to believe these verses say I along with everyone who ever lived will die in Adam but in Christ only a few that is the elect are the only ones that will be made alive? And also God concluded the whole world in disbelief but only gives mercy to a few that is the elect?
I think not. All means all. It is an idle of the heart if one believes that God did not save all, because that price was paid on the cross. Steve makes his case with the scriptures quoted as well as the few that I site. (Romans 3:23 For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.) Who do you owe your faith to did you first search for Christ or were dragged to Him by His Father. (John 6:44 No one can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him)
Did you possess the Faith to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ? (Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved though faith; and that not of yourselves: it is a gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.)
Did you catch that. You which means me and everyone else who comes to Christ possess no Faith to believe. This Faith comes from God it is a gift. Even the works that you do are not your own but Christ works through you.
God creates all and everyman lives by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of the Lord. All men whether they be good or evil God has made and they were for ordained to be that way to accomplish His purpose, for only God can make good come from evil. Now you can say oh am I a puppet but I point you to the scriptures: (Romans 9:20-23 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor? What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted for destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels for mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,). Now you might point out in this scripture that it says plainly that the vessel dishonor are fitted for destruction. Where does this conflict with the scriptures of all being saved? Did not you suffer destruction to YOUR flesh. Were you not concluded in disbelief until which time God saw fit to make known to you the riches of his glory on you the vessel of mercy. Now for the vessels of dishonor what does the scripture say of these? (1 Corr 3:11-15 For other foundation can no man lay that that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stone, wood, hay, stubble; Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. if any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.)
These vessels of dishonor suffer loss in the day of judgement they will nash there teeth. but they will be saved through the fire.
I pray that you can see the fullness of the scripture regarding this matter. And that you, me, and everyone else by virtue of being saved now press toward the Higher calling the one of the Chosen, the elect of God those who will not taste the second death. Peace be with you brother.
Ray
Santana,
I will have to admit that I spoke rather hastily in our email about this verse. Though we could “go in circles” on it as you say, I think the scriptural mate for this verse is Jesus’ comment about little children. Remember that he said in Matthew 18:14 “it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.” Now, what makes this a matching verse to compare and get a good scriptural answer is that this verse talks of the same subject and even uses the same vocabulary (”perish” and “will”) in reference to God sending some to hell (perish). You asked me who the “us” is in Peter. The “us” is believers, I will grant you that. But my point is that the “us” used doesn’t mean everyone else is excluded. Let me give you an example. It is the same as if I said, “Jesus died for my sin”. Does that mean he didn’t die for yours or anyone else’s? Of course not. That statement is true that he died for my sins, but it doesn’t rule out others. Now back to the current verse. Jesus specifically said it wasn’t his Father’s will that one of “these” little ones should perish. Certainly there were children there who weren’t elect, wouldn’t you say? Of course. He was speaking to a crowd of people. Jesus said it wasn’t his Father’s WILL that one of THESE little ones should go to hell. Calvinists say it IS his will that some of those little ones should perish. It’s that simple. Calvinists make Jesus say the opposite of what he acutally said. It is NOT his father’s will. They say it is his Father’s will. This verse answers Peter’s verse because it shows that God is not willing that the elect should perish, that is true, but he is not willing “that any of these little ones should perish” which means those not elect as well. So, to answer your question, we don’t need to know what you brought up about who the letter was addressed to and so forth as much as we need to find the matching scripture and I found it. It shows you that God is not willing that “us” or “one of these little ones” should perish. That means that you were half right, which means you omitted half as well. My education didn’t get this for me. My belief in his God’s goodness did. He is NOT WILLING that one of those little ones should go to hell. Praise God for that, for if that was not the case, I might as well write off most of my children as having any chance of going to heaven, and you can do the same. Thank God they do have a chance to believe and go to heaven, and are not kept from going there by the “sovereignty” of God at the expense of his mercy. Please study Matthew 18:14 and answer me this one thing. Was God willing that any of those little ones perish and go to hell? A yes or no would be sufficient. After your probable answer of “no,” then ask yourself how that doesn’t contradict your belief that he is willing that little ones go to hell. Stick to this point for me if you can. I pray that the Lord will show you the error of your ways brother. “Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.”
Steve, I think that your response sounds really touching; only on the surface though. Your response is very consistent with the Arminian school of thought–which paints a picture of a fragile god who is desperately seeking to save the whole world while being at the mercy of man…a god who miserably fails at saving those who he wills to save.
As in your prior response, I believe you have spoken hastily and missed the point. You said the following:
“ …Jesus specifically said it wasn’t his Father’s will that one of “these” little ones should perish. Certainly there were children there who weren’t elect, wouldn’t you say? Of course…”
Would you agree that those who believe in Jesus Christ are the very elect? (Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. Jn 6:47) I don’t believe the children spoken of in this passage “weren’t elect” as you say. Note Matthew 18:6–”But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Obviously, this passage is no different than the verse in Peter…it also speaks of God not willing that the elect perish.
You also said the following:
“…This verse answers Peter’s verse because it shows that God is not willing that the elect should perish, that is true, but he is not willing “that any of these little ones should perish” which means those not elect as well…”
How you arrived at the conclusion that the ‘little ones’ were not elect is beyond me. I can only conclude that you so desperately wanted to make the scriptures say what you wanted them to say; not what the authors intended to say. This is a very dangerous practice.
Further, you go on:
“…After your probable answer of “no,” then ask yourself how that doesn’t contradict your belief that he is willing that little ones go to hell…”
I have never told you that I believe in “little ones” going to hell. I believe the manifold wisdom of God is beyond mine, and I am certain only God knows how he justly deals with children when they pass. I would encourage you to remember that God knows all things; certainly he knows that a child’s life will be cut short even before the child is born.
On another note, you must also know that when the scriptures use the word “all,” that it is a term of general usage that is restricted to its text and context for its meaning in each particular place. Paul said, “ALL things are lawful unto me…” (1 Cor 6:12); but who would insist that he also meant sin was “lawful” for him?
The expression “all men” is likewise limited or restricted to its text and context. “Demetrius hath good report of ALL men,” wrote John (3 Jn 12). This couldn’t mean all men without a single exception. There are many others…
“…And the Lord added to the church daily such as SHOULD be saved.” (Acts 2:47b)
“…and as many were ORDAINED to eternal life believed.” (Acts 13:48b)
God chooses man–not the other way around. God is not interested in saving the whole world as many erroneously believe.
First off all who die in the flesh go to hell. Hell is the english word for Hades which is the greek word for the hebrew word sheol which is mankind’s common grave, God made it plainly clear when he told Adam that dust he was taken from and dust he shall return. To say that you will not see or taste death in the flesh is to believe what Satan said to the woman when he said, “You shall not surely die.” Jesus Christ himself went to hell. Is the servant better than the master?
Second, no it is not Gods will that any should perish which is to be lost, eternally cut off.
Third, I don’t quite understand what you mean. Are you saying that its not Gods will but the will of one of these little children whether or not their a part of the first resurrection, or saved for that matter? This would fly in the face of Gods Soverinty.
In the beginning of the chapter of the verse you site the disciples asked Jesus, “Who would be the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.” The scripture you quote is in answer to this question. The “children” in referance are those that are converted and that these converted will have to become as little children where as God will have to chasten these ones in order to conform them to his image. Dont overlook the spiritual significance of Christ using the children as an example of the spiritual implication of being born again.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy.
I dont remember writing about who the books were written to in my reply above if so could you please point out to me where. Also you never answered my question as to why you believe that all in Adam die but a few in Christ will be made alive?
You say, “Now, what makes this a matching verse to compare and get a good scriptural answer is that this verse talks of the same subject and even uses the same vocabulary (”perish” and “will”) in reference to God sending some to hell (perish). You asked me who the “us” is in Peter.”
Where do I site a scripture where peter used “us”, and “perish”.
Matt 18:11 For the son of man came to seek and save that which was lost.
Was it only the elect that were lost?
Rom 3:22-24 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: For all have sinned, and fallen short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.
Was it just the elect who sinned? Was it only the elect that fell short of the glory of God?
Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that ever mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Was just the elect guilty by virtue of the law?
Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Was it just the elects flesh that was not justified?
I quote this Romans 11:32 HE HAS CONCLUDED THEM ALL IN DISBELIEF, THAT HE MIGHT HAVE MERCY ON ALL. (capitals are mine)
So I’m to assume that he only concluded his elect in this verse as well?
It was through Abrahams seed which is Christ that the nations of the earth would bless themselves. The nations here is not limited to one nation that is the elect but all. “but each in his own order.” Make no mistake about it, Jesus is saving all, he saved all, and he will save all. The distinction between the two, the seed of the women, and the seed of the serpent is this. Which resurrection will you, I, or everyone else for that matter be apart of? That first and holy resurrection or the second. Only God can decide that.
Brother in Christ,
Kenny
Is it God’s will that I believe all my supposed false doctrine like he died for the sins of the world, i.e., every person on this planet? You are in quite a “pickle” opposing yourself and here’s why. You believe I am saved and elect as you have said. Is it, therefore, God’s will that his elect believe in false doctrine like you say I am doing? If not, why do I believe it? Is it my will or God’s that I do this? Since you believe I am saved, is your God unable to convert me to your belief? Whose God is the real “miserable failure” here? The scriptures say that the Holy Ghost will lead me into all truth. Was it his will that I believe in false doctrine or my will? Either way, you are backed in a corner. If you say it’s my will, then my will has overcome God’s will. If it’s God’s will, then your God wills that his elect child believes in false doctrine. Don’t give me any of that “permissive will” scholarly, fair speech dung. That’s not scriptural and you know it. Either God wills it or he doesn’t according to Calvinism. My belief, that I believe what I do because of my own choice, would permit me to believe in false doctrine. Yours won’t because it means that God is causing a saved man like you to believe false doctrine, and I don’t think you believe that God causes saved men to believe false doctrine since nothing happens that isn’t his will according to Calvinism. Please show me the scripture that says it is God’s will that I believe false doctrine. By the way, I answered all your arguments but the power went out and I lost it all. Am I to believe it wasn’t God’s will that I show you those answers? But then the power came back on again, and I could have retyped it and my will would have prevailed. I wonder which was God’s will? By the way, check out my New Elect Version of the Bible, it’s coming soon. Have fun with this one. “For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. (1 timothy 4:10)
Here’s your translation that you believe: “For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is NOT the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.” Would that make you feel better if it read that way? Or how about this: “…who is the Saviour of SOME men, specially of those that believe.” I don’t have to change the verse. I can read it as it reads and believe it without qualification and making it say the opposite of what it actually says. I’m going to go out now and tell someone that I’m not sure if God died for their sins or not because I’m not sure if they’re elect. How in the world is that supposed to be “good news”? “…whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die.” That’s good news brother. Believest thou this?
One more point if you don’t mind Santana:
“And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.” (1 john 2:2)
That verse proves many things, but notice that it says he is the propitiation for our sins (elect). I will stop there. That is a true statement BUT not exclusive. You make it exclusive. Just the fact that he is a propitiation for “our” sins doesn’t exclude others and the proof is the next line-”and not for ours only”. So you see that, as I stated in my last response, scripture can say Christ died for “our” sins, but that doesn’t exclude others. It is just a statement of fact as I gave you the example “Christ died for my sins” doesn’t mean I am the only one he died for.
“he is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but for the sins of the whole world.” What could be clearer? Even if you say “our” means the elect, you have to say the rest is not the elect because it said “and not for ours only”. Don’t make up stuff like that means the elect Gentiles as opposed to elect Jews or some other Calvinistic lingo you have swallowed. John mentions NOTHING about elect Gentiles compared to elect Jews anywhere in the context. That’s what Calvinists have to make up so it sounds good. He differentiates between “our” sins and “not for ours only” and “whole world”. No Jews or Gentiles anywhere to be found.
You can play “ring around the rosey” all day and never read the plain meaning of this scripture. He is the propitiation for “our” (elect, believers) sins, yes, “and not for ours (elect) only, but for those of the whole world.”
Why is thought a thing incredible to you that God laid down his life for the whole world? I don’t read of “limited atonement” anywhere except in Calvinite literature. All the “tulip” is added lingo that is not in scripture as I have mentioned before. There is no “total depravity”, unconditional election”, “limited atonement”, “irrestible grace” or “perserverance of the saints” anywhere in scripture. If you claim to adhere to scriptural words, why do you accept these? Why do you place so much importance on these terms when they are not scriptural? You are not “holding fast the form of sound words”. You know very well the danger of accepting words like these that are not the word of God. Once you buy their vocabulary, the rest will follow. All cults know this, and that is why you must accept their own made up vocabulary. Words are that important Santana. I know you know this. “if any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God.” We should use great plainess of speech, not smooth words and fair speeches. Pretty soon you’ll be sounding like your friend Kenny who uses “sheol” and “hades” instead of “hell” as it READS in English. Does he believe in a literal, burning hell? He doesn’t have to if can change “hell” to mean other things. You are building on sand if you build your foundation on these terms.
hello brother,
am I to assume that whenever the scripture talks of hell that it mean a “lake of fire”? Am I to believe that once one dies that they are immediately sent to burn forever in hell and then resurrected in the last days to be judged and then tossed back into the torture pit? Do you use your dictionary or perhaps do you used a strongs concordance? If you do you should throw these out because there of no use to you. you should also rip out you concordance which is in your bible no need for that either. You should know that it is the sum of Gods words that is truth not the one verse theory that you go on when it comes to hell. the lake of fire spoken of in Revelation in no way shape or form has anything to do with hell. You would have me to believe that when Christ cast hell and death into the lake of fire to be destroyed, that is done away with, that he destroys fire with fire this is absurd. At no time in scripture greek or hebrew did the prophets or disciples talk about people being condemed to burn forever in a literal lake of fire. God is a consuming fire. Am I to believe that when I light a fire when camping that God is that fire? This is a spiritual statement meaning something greater than the physical word you limit God to. Your right we could go over this all day. Christ does not speak in parables so that all could understand he spoke in parables so that only those who where given eyes to see and ears to hear could understand. But i guess of course that you would have me to believe that this is talking about physical blind and deaf people. God wills in people, man lives by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God, to believe other wise is to say the prophecies of this book (the bible) were not meant for you to live by. When you say that God will do such a thing as torture someone forever with no sort of redemtion for that one is saying that He is an unjust God. For the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life. Death is the ultimate penalty for our sin not death then torture. as well as Gods gift of eternal life is to a gift and not conditional. As in Adam all die so in Christ all will be made alive. It dosnt say that all will die and then some will saved and some will burn forever.
I pray that God will burn out this idle of your heart so that you can see the love and mercy of a loving God who leaves the ninety nine to look to that one.
brother in Christ,
Kenny
Kenny,
We can talk about your unbelief of a burning hell some other time. I’m curious about some of your other beliefs. You are Santana’s friend, I presume. He says you are a former JW. I would like to know what you believe about Jesus Christ. Let me ask you this. Did Jehovah himself become a flesh and blood man and lay down his life for you on the cross and shed his blood for you? Yes or No?
lol, hello again brother sure I can talk to you about that some other time. Would you like a free home Bible study? (hahah just kidding inside joke) any hoo on a lighter note. I would assume you are asking me a question to see if I still believe some of the JW’s way of thinking. Let me say that when posed a question I can only answer using the Word (Bible) for I believe it should be the final authority. So, giving you just a yes or no answer would be doing you a disservice.
Exodus 6:2,3 And God spoke unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the LORD: I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto, Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, But by my name Jehovah was I not known to them.
Mat 22:23 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob God is not the God of the dead, but the living.
John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father, and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father
Col 1:14 who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature.
There many other scriptures as you well know that explain exactly who Jehovah of the old testament is.
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
John 14:10 Believest thaou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: But the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Never let it be said that I do not believe that the Father is not in Christ, and Christ is not in the Father. Jehovah appeared unto Moses that is to say he seen Him. If the Word, Christ, is the image of the invisible God and at no time has any man seen God and yet lived then by the Word of God Jesus is the Jehovah of the old testament as well as the one that died for all on the cross.
Also I posted a response to Eve Deceived Gods Commandments Corrupted. Check it out you will enjoy it I am sure.
Also if you dont believe in limited atonement what do you believe? I certainly dont as you may well see.
As always let God be made true and everyman a liar, brother in Christ,
Kenny
Steve,
The scriptures you have projected in this article are irrefutable to the claims that ALL is not limited to what Calvinists call “the elect” but the whole world. It is amazing how anyone who claims to have the spirit of a sound mind in the Lord can refute these verses saying they are only directed at “the elect”. How utter crazy!!! Do I have to repeat for the sake of those who are hell-bent on not wanting to see that these following verses are referring to two peoples … one lost (those without) and those redeemed (those within):
1 John 2:2. “And he is the propitiation for our sins (the elect, the saved, the redeemed): and not for ours only (being limited to us - the saved), but also for the sins of the whole world (everyone outside Christ).”
It is obvious who the whole world is in scripture. Who could be audacious enough to change it? Here’s another also, you already quoted:
1 Timothy 4:10. “For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men (the world, the lost), specially of those that believe (the elect, the saved).”
Keep up the good work Brother … it will take nothing but short of a miracle to save someone who has abandoned the faith to believe they are saved because God choose them in His pre-programmed stage before Creation, where they will never be able to drift, divert, slide, or become shipwrecked of their faith, irrespective of what choices they make towards good or evil, or towards the perfect, before or after rebirth. How can you make them turn or see their need to want to, if the pattern has already been set as God’s will?
Tom.
Tom,
I understand you do not agree with my position on certain doctrinal matters, and I will refrain from going in circles on this issue.
Your statement of how it would “take nothing short of a miracle to save someone who has abandoned the faith” is shallow. I can understand your disdain for the things I believe in, but to say that I am not saved because I believe the way I do is very ignorant.
When I was sixteen years old the Lord Jesus Christ found me dead in trespasses and sins. By God’s grace I trusted in Jesus to save me. Tom, I no longer walk according to the course of this world, and today I am seated in heavenly places just as you are.
By the way Tom, I didn’t pray some ‘Sinner’s Prayer’ like the one below you have posted on your site encouraging people to pray if they don’t know Jesus—
“Lord, I know things are amiss in my life and somehow I just can’t measure up! Save me Lord and be my life I pray. I ask this Lord, in the name of your Son Jesus Christ. ”
If I may, it reminds me too much of the prayer a motivational speaker here in Houston, TX by the name of Joel Osteen prays at the end of his pep talk. If not, then surely it resembles the one they pray in the 700 club, or Benny Hinn’s “This is Your Day” program; in short, your prayer smells too much like rotting flesh (man), and I’m certain such prayers are laden with all manner of evil and are a stench to the nostrils of God.
I apologize, it is almost time for my devotional with my New Living Translation. Oh, I’m sure you are aware the King James translators affirmed and avowed the poorest of translations of the Bible in English is the word of God.
Tom, what Bible would you have read if you were born before 1611? Would the Wycliff, Tyndale or the Geneva Bible been “perfect” enough? If it was good enough for the ‘old divines’ would it have been good enough for you?
Boys, boys, let’s all calm down a bit. This is not a boxing forum, though we should “fight the good fight of faith”. I don’t think Tom is saying you are not saved though it may have sounded like that. He doesn’t know you or your beliefs other than Calvinism, and I’m sure he knows that any man of God can be misled on doctrinal issues even after salvation. If he wants to respond to that, he can. On the other hand, I don’t know what “Sinner’s prayer” you are referring to that Tom wants people to pray. “God be merciful to me a sinner” is a good START for anyone, wouldn’t you say? I think if you read more of Tom’s writings, you would agree that he is against anything smacking of churchianity, including “easy believism” and “sinner’s prayers” that make salvation like some kind of instant recipe. Let’s try to speak the truth in love (coming from me that sounds kind of “mushy” but, it is scriptural.) Love the brotherhood. Amen. Let’s work to edify each other and build each other up even with our differences. You are both my brothers in Christ, and we must remember that we are to lay down our lives for each other, not tear them down. Let’s rebuke but also let’s pray for unity in the faith and doctrine. The Lord Jesus will work out everything beautiful in his time. Amen. I love you guys.
Sorry bro, lately things have been “amiss in my life and I just haven’t been able to measure up”…smile.
I’ll try harder!
Hey Steve,
Sorry for the delay I’ve been away for a few days. In all honesty I was looking forward to your reply to my last post. After all you asked a question I felt as a brother in Christ I should respond. I have to say that it saddens me to see that you haven’t done the same. I feel you kinda put me on the back burner. I assume you know both Santana and Mr. Lamb. Its like there is no reason to post unless one is answering one of YOUR questions, or unless one knows you personally. Anyway I have to say that I have learned so much about your site, thankyou.
Brother in Christ,
Kenny
Kenny,
This is not an email forum per se. I am not always going to respond to everything in here, especially as this thing grows. I don’t always check this posting here. If you have specific questions for me, why don’t you email me? I’ll be glad to answer. You asked me a few questions, but if there is one or two in particular you want answered, let me know. Don’t take it so personally. It wasn’t meant that way.
Disclaimer:
As I have said to Steve I will not be posting on this forum again although I give Steve my support to this web site and am very pleased to the bold doctrinal stance he takes on issues, exposing apostasy, and promoting the kingdom.
On departing I want to make it quite clear …
(1) I have not accused or made insinuation towards anyone not being saved who has posted here.
(2) I never have and never will endorse a formulae in prayer or a method on how to be saved.
(3) I will never enter into discussion with anyone who wants to outdo me in doctrine just for the sake of winning an argument, nor with anyone who resorts to sarcasm to undermine my credibility.
(4) Finally, if anyone wants to have a go at me let them do this to me direct by contacting me in person and not publicly over a forum or someone’s web site.
Coiu for now dear brethren!
Your fellow pilgrim,
Tom a lamb.
boy, oh boy, what a melee of arguments;
and all because the word “world” in John 3:16.
I do not kwow if I am a Calvinist or if I am not, but it troubles my mind to see in the Old testament that the God of John 3:16 Himself ordered the killings of men,women, young persons and children even infants. They were also part of this world werent they?
A short answer will be perfec.
God can order the PHYSICAL death of any heathen, but that is a far cry from damning their souls for ever before they’re even born with no chance to repent because they’re already doomed. We all have a choice to believe or not believe the gospel, and teaching that Christ’s blood only paid for some people is a corruption of the gospel in 1 Cor. 15 which said “first of all,… Christ died for OUR sins.”
I am neither Calvinist nor Arminian. I am a blood bought, born again Christ Follower and a Baptist by conviction. I will say this about Calvinism…ALL doesn’t mean ALL if you’re a Calvinist. My KJV bible teaches Jesus died for ALL. Great web site here.